Författare Ämne: Stonehenge revisited  (läst 3520 gånger)

Utloggad Adils

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Stonehenge revisited
« skrivet: september 11, 2014, 14:49 »
Ett enormt dolt monument under Stonehenge förbluffar arkeologerna: http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19513253.ab
Hell thir regin donaraz!

Utloggad Hans Menzing

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« Svar #1 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 15:00 »
Tack för tipset!

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« Svar #2 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 17:22 »
Citera
På kartbilderna från Stonehenges närområde framträdde 17 tidigare okända rituella underjordiska monument och en 33 meter lång timmerbyggnad. Byggnaden tros vara 6 000 år gammal och tros ha använts vid begravningsritualer - bland annat att separera inre organ och muskler från den dödes skelett, enligt BBC.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article19513253.ab

Upptäckten har gjorts med laser-scanning. Hur kan den leda till sådana, vilda spekulationer?

Apropå metodik och tolkningsgrundlag: Är det här spekulativ boulevard-journalistik - eller en ny form för arkeologi, typ 'pre-processuell'?!

Närmare fakta:
http://archpro.lbg.ac.at/stonehenge-stunning-hidden-archaeology-revealed
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Utloggad immo

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« Svar #3 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 17:31 »
The project website can be found here:
http://lbi-archpro.org/cs/stonehenge/

The Swedish National Heritage Board's archaeological unit UV (Riksantikvarieämbetet UV) is our Swedish partner in the project: http://www.arkeologiuv.se/stonehenge-lbi-archpro-och-uv/

Latest Swedish technology has been used at unprecedented scale at Stonehenge, as well as at our other case study sites (Birka, Uppåkra, Gokstad, Borre, Carnuntum).

The discoveries have been made through the combination of several archaeological prospection methods: magnetic prospection, georadar prospection, electromagnetic measurements, airborne and terrestrial laser scanning. In total over 12 square kilometres have been mapped over the course of four years (16 weeks of fieldwork).

The archaeological interpretations are based on solid empirical data and archaeological expertise. Regarding the actual results check here: http://lbi-archpro.org/cs/stonehenge/results.html

Utloggad Carl Thomas

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« Svar #4 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 17:40 »
Laserscanning, magnetometer, markradar, mm, har använts. 17 nya "henge" platser har hittats samt hundratals andra fynd. 12 kvadratkilometer har undersökts. Sök  Stonehenge på Google och nyheter - där finns en hel del skrivet + npgra bra bilder och kartor över fynden.

Avköttningen av lik tror jag har förekommit även i Skandinavien. Vi har ju hittat många skärmärken i mänskliga ben - vilka har tolkats som "kanibalism".

Thomas
Historia är färskvara.

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« Svar #5 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:21 »
Laserscanning, magnetometer, markradar, mm, har använts. 17 nya "henge" platser har hittats samt hundratals andra fynd. 12 kvadratkilometer har undersökts. Sök  Stonehenge på Google och nyheter - där finns en hel del skrivet + npgra bra bilder och kartor över fynden.

Avköttningen av lik tror jag har förekommit även i Skandinavien. Vi har ju hittat många skärmärken i mänskliga ben - vilka har tolkats som "kanibalism".

Thomas

Som upptäckts med laser-scanner och markradar?  ::)
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Utloggad immo

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« Svar #6 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:35 »
A long barrow has been discovered/mapped by magnetometer and georadar measurements. The corresponding magnetometer data and interpretation map can be seen here.

A suggestion for a reconstruction of this structure prior to burial can be found here (animated gif)

Regarding the during the late British Neolithic not uncommon excarnation process associated with long barrows see for example here or here (read in particular the last paragraph on this page of the book: The Stonehenge People).

Now add 1 and 1.

Utloggad Carl Thomas

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« Svar #7 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:39 »
Om du menar att avköttningen hittats med hjälp av markradar så tror jag att du har fel :)

Thomas
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« Svar #8 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:44 »
Aha - dom har alltså hittat på det.

Annars får du gärna upplysa allmogen om vart i Sverige man hittat gravar med 'avköttade' människoben.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

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« Svar #9 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:47 »

Now add 1 and 1.

Yupp. And get 3.

That's a new form of archeological methodology, called 'pre-processual'.
“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

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« Svar #10 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 18:59 »
Citera
Aha - dom har alltså hittat på det.
??

Du far gjärna klicka på dem länkorna som finns lite länge up på sidan och som berätta om de metoder som kallas för ”arkeologisk prospektering”. Eller titta här. Arkeologisk prospektering betyder att man leta efter spår av arkeologiska lämningar utan att man gräva. Där fins faktisk icke-grävande (och därmed icke-destruktiv) arkeologi!

Du kan också klicka på den länk i min inläg ovan som visar resterna av den strukturen som arkeologiskt tolkats som long barrow. Den prozess som kallas arkeologisk tolkning är en subjektiv prozess som beror mycket på erfarenhet (för att jämföra datan) och kunskap av den användt metodiken. 

Det är mögjlikt att kartlägger hela Romserka städer utan ett enda spadstick.

Du kan också gjärna använda Occams rakkniv och så kommer du att ser att 1+1 är något mindre än 3.

Ursäkta för min dåliga Svenskan!

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« Svar #11 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 19:48 »

Ursäkta för min dåliga Svenskan!

Perhaps you misunderstand my communication with CT. We're not discussing geo-radars and scanners, but what one may and may not interpret from their pics.

If you think that a certain structure is enough to prove anything about the customs of the people that built it you're indeed out on a limb. When Maxwell Cade made his "Radio-Detection-And-Range-device" he were able to detect airplanes crossing the English Channel long before anyone could see them or hear their engines. But he could still not tell what the pilots had had for breakfast - even though he knew that a certain percentage would have had sauerkraut. Mixing building-structures with sauerkraut you can use any razorblade any way you want - and still don't make sense.

Your links tell about two long-barrows found in England that's quite out of the ordinary, where missing bones still makes a puzzle. Thus the de-fleshing is one of more possible theories.

As you may know we have thousands of long-barrows (trapezoid tumuli) across northern Eurasia - from Ireland to Kaukasus. The general use of these structures are still upp for discussion - but it's quite clear that many of them were something different than graves. Perhaps Hodder was rigth claiming that barrows with chambers resembled old long-houses - built as special (cultural/ritual) meeting-spots?

Made in an age where the overwhelming majority of peolpe got cremated, it's difficult to explain the enormous work made to create these monuments unless they were of some practical value to their builders.

Citera

Archaeologists including Ian Hodder have noted similarities between the two forms although a significant number of long mounds in southern England have been demonstrated more recently to have limited primary evidence of burial at all.

Traditionally, these structures have been interpreted as 'houses' for the dead and that barrow builders may have continued this old idea in the Neolithic and later periods. In those long barrows that do contain appreciable quantities of human remains, their concentration in just one small part of the overall structure has led some to argue that the long barrow was not merely a repository for the dead but also a general monument acting as a territorial marker, a place of religious offering and a community centre. Some appear to have been built over pre-existing occupation sites which may support this interpretation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_barrow

Obviously we have to wait untill the building is excavated and analyzed, before we may get a substantiated and qualified opinion about the use and re-use of this one, too.

“It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they have been fooled.”

Utloggad immo

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« Svar #12 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 20:05 »
I understand your Swedish perfectly well – just my writing isn’t flawless since I did not go to school in Sweden.

In your earlier post – which you deleted – you actually implied the impossibility to detect archaeological structures without excavation, when you wrote along the lines of “How could they know that without having excavated – not a single piece of turf turned?”.

Since prospection is my area of expertise I commented on it. Not being a professionally trained archaeologist myself I can only refer to the archaeological interpretation made by colleagues who are more experienced with this matter. The literature shows that such burial rites were not uncommon in this time and place – so the assumption that they were as well used at this site is not too farfetched.

In any case, anybody is free to come up with a different interpretation of the empirical data – which quite obviously shows a building structure accompanied with the trenches from which the material is likely to have been taken for coverage/construction of the long barrow.

I do not argue the quote that you mention, that these monuments or buildings may have had other purposes aside from later becoming burials – in my eyes this may well have been the case.
 
For different reasons (financial, legal, moral) it is not always possible or adviseable to excavate. That's when prospection methods provide a possibility to nevertheless gain knowledge about buried structures hidden in the subsurface. You would not want to excavated 12 square kilometres around Stonehenge, would you?

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« Svar #13 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 20:41 »
In our press release we write:

A few tens of burial mounds flattened by agriculture have been localized by our measurements and were investigated in detail, amongst them a so called long barrow. This long mound is a burial place of a village community which has lived in the Stonehenge landscape some 6000 years ago. The georadar data show traces of a long wooden building, as we know it from Neolithic continental Europe. The 33 metres long and in average 8 metres wide massive building offered on 300 square metres place for ritual funerals, which have been conducted over generations. The funeral rituals of that time comprised a complicated sequence of excarnation, dissection of the bodies, ancestral worship in presence of skeletal parts, which was conducted in a forecourt surrounded by a wooden facade. The entrance into the building was blocked with a massive post, so that only a small passage was left to access the dark interior. At the end of its time of use the long house was covered with white chalk sediment. The covering material was extracted from elongated pits that are clearly visible in the magnetic data.

Of course this interpretation is open for discussion. If you have any other ideas that explain the data better or make for a plausible story I would be happy to learn about them.

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« Svar #14 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 20:44 »
I understand your Swedish perfectly well – just my writing isn’t flawless since I did not go to school in Sweden.

In your earlier post – which you deleted – you actually implied the impossibility to detect archaeological structures without excavation, when you wrote along the lines of “How could they know that without having excavated – not a single piece of turf turned?”.


Not me deleting. I corrected the language of my first post + underlined the part of the quote that matters. That's all.

Thus I never implied that "no structures could be found" with scanners and radars. Laughable. I've used them myself - with the help of higly skilled geo-physicists. From 100 to 500 Mhz, accordingly. Besides - we've discussed such matters before, so you should know me better than that. 

Citera

Not being a professionally trained archaeologist myself I can only refer to the archaeological interpretation made by colleagues who are more experienced with this matter. The literature shows that such burial rites were not uncommon in this time and place – so the assumption that they were as well used at this site is not too farfetched.


That's THE discussion.

Citera
In any case, anybody is free to come up with a different interpretation of the empirical data – which quite obviously shows a building structure accompanied with the trenches from which the material is likely to have been taken for coverage/construction of the long barrow.

No question about that. Just a bit early to conclude, finally, as of yet.

Citera
I do not argue the quote that you mention, that these monuments or buildings may have had other purposes aside from later becoming burials – in my eyes this may well have been the case.

Good.

Than we'll have to wait untill the nitty-gritties are done to find out - IF it's possible to deduct, analyse and interpretate any tibia.

Citera

For different reasons (financial, legal, moral) it is not always possible or adviseable to excavate. That's when prospection methods provide a possibility to nevertheless gain knowledge about buried structures hidden in the subsurface. You would not want to excavated 12 square kilometres around Stonehenge, would you?

Heck no. I'm a great fan and propagator of radars, scans and detectors - as long as they're used with skill and common sense. Thus I do indeed appreciate what you and your rigth collegues of geophysicists have contributed to the historical sciences. Theoretical archaeologists over-estimating or miss-interpretating their empirical evidence is quite another bag of potato. Which was the sole focus - underlined - in my first post, above.

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« Svar #15 skrivet: september 11, 2014, 21:00 »

Of course this interpretation is open for discussion. If you have any other ideas that explain the data better or make for a plausible story I would be happy to learn about them.

The reason why we find long-barrow with 'tons' of bones can be various. One theory is the one you refere to, anticipating that the grave have been used over several generations, just as the "domar-ringar" and "skeppsätningar" you find in Scandianvia. I doubt that, though.

Another anticipation is that the bones have been moved, from several older graves to one large one - using a barrow that have been abandoned as a meeting-place/cult-place and made into a grand 'family-grave'. I find that more realistic.

Most important though; Our understanding of the time in question is still weak - and we have to be very careful not to overextend our interpretations. As said before - the treatment of the dead, at the time in question, was cremation. Which means that long-barrows with bones inside is an exception somehow - anyhow...  :-\
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« Svar #16 skrivet: september 30, 2014, 00:24 »
You can find visualisations of our corresponding discoveries at Stonehenge in Part 1 of the BBC production (from 17:22 min onwards). For an explanation of the entire project watch from the beginning  ;)

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« Svar #17 skrivet: oktober 02, 2014, 21:50 »
Tack för länken Immo. Både första och andra delen är intressanta.

Thomas I